From the editors: We understand that there are many different opinions on whether women have enough visibility and authority in the LDS church. Please feel free to discuss your own views in the comment section below.
This post is in response to an article published in the Salt Lake Tribune on August 16 2012. That article divided Mormon women into three basic groups: women who honor the traditional gender roles of the Church (men hold the priesthood, women have the sacred right to motherhood); women who desire equality through female priesthood ordination; and a middle group who are pushing for changes in doctrine or administration in the name of equality.
I hold the traditional view, and to be honest, don’t really understand why others are so concerned. Equal is defined as “evenly proportioned or balanced.” Relative to gender equality, then, women and men provide an even proportion and balance in the world through their different roles. In the Church, Priesthood x Fatherhood = Motherhood x Relief Society, just as 4 x 6 = 8 x 3. There are different factors on either side of the equation, but they are equal. No other combination of these four factors will be equal.
Changes in Church doctrine or administration relative to gender equality (or anything else) will not come through activism. They come through revelation from God to His Prophet. One of the Twelve Apostles, Elder D. Todd Christofferson, said it best: “… in the Church today, just as anciently, establishing the doctrine of Christ or correcting doctrinal deviations is a matter of divine revelation to those the Lord endows with apostolic authority.”
It is imperative that we sustain our living Prophets and Apostles. They have been called of God, and He will never lead His Church astray. If we move away from their teachings, we move away from God. The Prophets and Apostles have taught, and continue to teach, that a woman’s role of mother is her most important responsibility. Similarly, we are taught that those ordained to the priesthood have specific responsibilities; many of these priesthood responsibilities pertain to fatherhood. President Henry B. Eyring taught us this again (here) in our last General Conference.
Julie B. Beck, former Relief Society general president, testified that as we study the history of the women in the Church, “we can find patterns and examples of sisters and brothers working in partnership in families and the Church, and we can learn principles about who we are, what we believe, and what we should protect.” I am confident that God wants us to work in partnership to protect the family, and it is through our divinely appointed gender roles that we will best be able to do so.
Do you agree or disagree with the author? Please let us know.
I find myself in the middle group, that of those who would just like to see more visibility in the LDS church for women. I find many of the suggestions in the Salt Lake Tribune very appealing such as having more female speakers with clout at stake and general conferences. I would also love to see woman being able to give blessings (the idea of a mother giving a blessing to her pregnant daughter I find incredibly touching) and to have teenagers be able to have worthiness interviews with women present. My experience at the local, ward level is that woman do have significant influence which is often as influential as the men. I also was impressed by the writer quoted in the article who called for women to use the gifts they already have accessible to them (really incredible, actually, since they have the ability to use the power of God to work miracles and lead and teach as much as men do). Women have no need to feel inwardly like they are not empowered. At the same time, this does not make up for the lack of outward notice in the church.
Abalyn, thanks for your comment. I would like to understand how you propose some of these ideas be implemented in the context of existing doctrine. Will you elaborate?
It’s not equal when men decide how money is spent, what hangs on the walls of the relief society room, who is called and who is disfellowshipped. It’s outrageous we endure the disparity of funding scouts vs YW.
But the goodness and sincerity in the saints continues to lure me to endure this baloney.
Part of me suspects men are so evil, if you didn’t let them be in charge their attendance would be even more sparse and weak than it already is.
1. “The Prophets and Apostles have taught, and continue to teach, that a woman’s role of mother is her most important responsibility”
Which would be great, except a large number of women never have the opportunity to have children. I’m single, I might never marry and have kids, and so this argument leaves me…where, exactly? Certainly not in possession of any sort of priesthood equivalent. I’ve read the “Mother heart” talk, which I found to be not very helpful so I’d love to hear some ideas about how single women achieve priesthood parity that are divested from the “Mother heart” ideas.
2. “I hold the traditional view, and to be honest, don’t really understand why others are so concerned. Equal is defined as “evenly proportioned or balanced.”. . . . In the church, Priesthood x Fatherhood = Motherhood x Relief Society.”
I think that mindset is a major problem. I can understand why other women do not want the priesthood, or why they hold a “traditional view.” But I find it frustrating and frankly a little troublesome when those with “traditional views” cannot and seem to not WANT to understand where I am coming from, and that’s what I think prevents us from being able to have a genuine dialogue on this subject.
Furthermore, perhaps things that seem evenly proportioned or balanced to you do not appear to be so to others. I personally do not find Priesthood and Motherhood to be equivalent (how many 12 year old girls are encouraged to become worthy mothers at the age of 12? Yeah, that would be terrible. But boys can hold the priesthood when they are 12…) as I’ve previously mentioned. Priesthood and Relief Society are the same only insofar as that is what we call our third hour meetings at church. I would not consider them to be equivalent programs.
3. “Changes in Church doctrine or administration relative to gender equality (or anything else) will not come through activism”
I would argue that sometimes activism can help…prompt revelation. That doesn’t make revelation any less real or powerful. But honestly, why would the current church leaders ask with genuine sincerity and open hearts if women should have the priesthood if the members don’t care or want that to happen? And I do think that there are aspects of administration relative to gender equality that would NOT require revelation at all – for example, Elle’s point about unequal budgets. No revelation would be required for a bishop in a ward to say “Hey, this is lame. YW should get the same amount of money as YM. Done.” I mean, on a small scale, yes, that’s revelation, but it’s not the type of Revelation (with a capital R!) that we talk about when we refer to revelation on gender equality.
4. “I am confident that God wants us to work in partnership to protect the family, and it is through our divinely appointed gender roles that we will best be able to do so.”
While I strongly support families (and, protecting them where needed, of course) I would like to dig a bit on why you feel that we are best able to protect families through our gender roles? What can I, as a single woman, do to protect The Family? And what does protecting the family really mean? Does it mean being a good parent and working hard to raise a good family? Does it mean not supporting gay marriage (too late!)? I would be interested to hear what you think the connection is between protecting families and gender roles, and specifically how single women (and maybe even single men!) fit into this schematic.
5. I’m sure I’m not winning any friends with this comment, but since you asked for different opinions I figured I’d throw mine in for what it’s worth. I promise I’m not trolling and I really would love to hear your responses.
NP, thank you for being open and willing to have a dialogue. It helps me understand your thoughts better. I will try to answer your questions as best I can, keeping in mind these are my opinions and that I can’t speak for others – so if others want to chime in, feel free!
1. I too am single with no children. Yet at the same time, I take my “mother” role seriously. It is hard, admittedly, to know how to do this. For me, it involves maintaining close relationships with my nieces and nephews, sitting with the children in the ward whose mother could use an extra set of hands, and going to the temple (a lot) to seek greater understanding. Eve was “mother of all living” prior to having children, I think in part because she understood how to teach and nurture. Perhaps the principles of teaching and nurturing are more critical than actually bearing children. There are multitudes of God’s children who need to be taught His word and nurtured in the good word of God. We can do that.
2. I think by your thoughts here you mean to tell me that you believe equal to be sameness. Is this right? If so, why? It seems to me that because men and women approach life differently, it is possible that God has set up different mechanisms for each gender that will maximize our respective abilities to gain exaltation. That being said, I really do want to have a better understanding of your feeling on this point.
3. It must be frustrating to see inequities at a local level that make magnifying callings more difficult. You are right there. If it is any consolation, I haven’t had that experience, so some are getting it right!
4. How do we protect the family? This is your best question! And it’s a critical one. I don’t have all the answers.
I feel I can best support the family as a single woman by encouraging my friends who are on the path to marriage, supporting those who choose to bring children into the world in the context of a two parent home, opposing same-gender marriage (and this is hard – I work with good people who have chosen this lifestyle), doing temple work, and diligently seeking for marriage and family. Another idea I have considered is devoting my career to supporting family values (I do know a single man who has chosen this path). I think the answer is different for each person. That’s the blessing of revelation. What do you do?
Yes on everything NP said.
I believe if we were to look at it from God’s perspective and not mans we would see that women do in fact have the priesthood in its truest form for it is to women that the ability to be co-creators with God is manifested. The priesthood is the authority to do God’s work upon the earth and bringing children into the world is a significant part of that.
To ensure that men understand they are a part of this they are given the opportunity to choose to accept the priesthood and its responsibilities of stewardship to continue God’s work and glory on the earth which is to bring to pass the opportunity for eternal life. I purposely omitted to bring to pass immortality for this has been accomplished in the resurrection of Jesus Christ as far as this present earthly existence is concerned.
I believe this allowance of choosing the priesthood does not say man is better than woman or woman is better than man but only that God will show that his plan is the priority and while it may appear the right of the “priesthood” would be manifested as a given and not a choice if women only where the example of it, the calling shows God’s truth that it is still a choice to accept the responsibilities of this privilege and is not to be taken lightly by either man or woman.
If both of these concepts were understood then man and women would work hand in hand to fulfill God’s purposes as he intended. Both would be considered worthy of listening to and prayerfully considering their perceptions, which admittedly can be quite different. It is not a matter of who has the title of whatever, in fact, those with a title in God’s kingdom are the servants of mankind and not the “better-thans” like they are of the world.
I see it as a matter of perspective that creates an issue here and propose that we consider looking at God’s perspective first and foremost.
The concept and question of equality shows how far we are from seeking the mind and will of God in all that we do. He will use us to the extent that we yield our will and all the resources he has given us to his purposes and we need no special recognition or calling for this, only a broken heart and contrite spirit.
Broken heart that aches for the sorrows that mankind must face because of sin and natural circumstances and a contrite spirit that knows we have fallen short of our own potential and need to be taught by the Holy Ghost and made his in heart, mind, and body. I suggest if our hearts were turned upon those things that God holds as priority we would not be so concerned about how we are equal but rather with how might I be of greater service in the building of his kingdom on the earth today, right this moment.
I mean no disrespect to other opinions. I only share what is on my heart. May we all be more like him for there is were we truly shine and fulfill our destiny and purpose is my prayer.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts, Debra. I found them very insightful.
Debra,
The ideas you express are what keep me a member of the Mormon Church: when we are all saved in God’s love in the next life and we have a fullness of joy, there will no longer what we perceive as inequality here. For whatever reason, God made us different now (and not just in gender) but those differences are not an issue in God’s viewpoint. At the ward level I also have experienced great opportunity to express my voice and lead and have felt that my male leaders want only my betterment and to serve me. However, I also have deeply felt in my personal prayer and relationship with God that he believes in my potential that exceeds cultural Mormon bounds for women and that also includes my equality with men and ability for leadership. I do not always feel the same feeling coming from the church leadership on the stake and general level.
Thank you Liz and Abalyn for the thoughts you expressed. I agree that the sentiment toward women can be different on the stake or general level as I have experienced some of this as well. We want to remember what Christ said as well pertaining to who is greatest. It is those who serve, so it appears to be a matter of where the heart is and not the gender or the title. Another thing I recall is that man and woman are not two entities before God. They are one. At his level of perfection he understands what that means and I believe we are far from that understanding at this point in time, although some may understand more fully than others.
I think, too, that we need to be allowed to come to a consensuses with things as they are and then perhaps more doors will open for other opportunities of leadership and service. We live among the wheat and the tares. God, in his infinite wisdom knows how to guide his church so that they might receive the fullness according to what they are willing to receive, but he considers the whole of us as well as the individual.
I thank God for his wisdom and love for all of us, brothers and sisters, and that he will guide his church into greater light according to their faithfulness. Like the man of color who had to wait till all things were offered unto him in the service of our Lord, I suspect that women have impact and influence and that nothing will be withheld if we wait on the Lord. And in reality our influence and opportunities for leadership in things of meekness, long-suffering, patience, humility, obedience, and so forth is very real just as things stand today and are these not the attributes of those who will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?
His direction is perfect and his timing is also. I do not think that to be asking these questions is inappropriate but rather it shows how God allows us to reason things out, choosing, of course, to accept his will in all things and then pray for the ability to accept and honor his will and timing knowing we will be denied nothing before him and it is all for our good and growth and will enlarge our spirits if we wait on him. To do less than this is to toy with unrighteous pride and envy and covetousness and we want to avoid that.
These are just some of my thoughts. Thank you for allowing me to express them.
I appreciate the openness of this discussion and the sensitivity of the responses. May I share some male perspective? Sisters, don’t worry, I’m not intending to refute or debate any shared ideas. I just want to offer another perspective. Forgive me if I hinder any discussion. That’s not my intent.
Men and women have many different experiences, but also many of the same. We feel lonely. We wonder what our roles are and how best to fulfill them. We continually look to the high standards set by Christ and wonder if we are good enough. And I must admit that the more I hear about equality of men and women, the more I wonder what my role as a man is in a woman’s life. If women can fend for themselves, have children, buy homes, run companies, lead nations, etc. then what does the man offer other than the reproductive elements? Man is minimized and and in someways neutered outside of the traditional role. Outside of the family, he can become self-centered and less useful. Just a grunt. I think that is the beauty of the proclamation of the family. It is a charge to both genders to play roles that are important to developing the best of each of their traits.
I know being single is difficult. It has occurred to me that all of the children who die early and those with serious disabilities may also feel the same. Only, they don’t have the additional days and opportunities to expect that their condition will change until the resurrection.
I also admit that I don’t relate to the frustration of women wanting more titles of leadership. Men seem to want less of them. At least, we often act that way.
Women seem to always be first responders to comfort and serve. Men learn great things from women who engage in Christ-like service, which ultimately is the only real form of leadership. Authority does not make a leader. Christ stated that he who is greatest among you, shall be the servant. I think he means that the more we serve (not servitude), the more influence we have on others, and therefore the greater leader we become.
If there appears to be less sensitivity at the stake and general leadership level, my guess is that by the time the issue escalates to that level, the motivations are different and might be interpreted more as rebellion rather than sincere concerns. Local leaders are more aware of challenges in the home or with the individual and can address needs more intimately.
Finally, I’m not familiar with the difference in budget between YM and YW. But, my experience has been that RS typically receives far more budget than the Elders and High Priests.
I’m grateful for the wonderful examples of the sisters in our church. We look to your examples of love and compassion. Perhaps the priesthood is bestowed on God’s sons to force accountability to act? Who knows. But, for me it doesn’t matter what the reasons are, whether eternal or simply for this life. I trust that God has prepared an earthly experience for me and is tutoring me to become like Him and be saved with Him and those I love. That’s all that I can hope for.
Thanks for your comments, Jason. I was not sure I understood at first so I had a discussion about this with one of my male friends. I didn’t understand so much the feeling that men don’t have roles any more in a society affected by feminism. I don’t think I think about what my role is or isn’t very much. I just do what seems right to me. My friend explained to me that men need roles more than women do. Would you agree with that? He says that in female hierarchies there is more moving around. In male hierarchies, everyone finds their spot/role pretty quickly and sticks to it. I could see how it would be confusing with women wanting more leadership in the professional world and in the church for men to feel like they don’t have a spot. I think the answer is for men to look for new roles–they also should be free to take on ones that traditionally were for women. They should feel free to wear the hat of nurturer more often or housekeeper. Women need to let men have more say in the home. I think most women would welcome it. I certainly really respect men who can also be nurturers.
I probably idealize the idea of women having authority. In actuality it is a lot of work. However, I also really long for strong women in the church who I could listen to and really learn from. I just don’t see them or hear them in the church, and I really want their voices more visible. Perhaps it is partly from being in a singles ward, but I really miss seeing the example of strong, compassionate women who can get things done.
Thanks for the kind responses, Abalyn and Debra. I appreciate that my comment was treated with sensitivity rather than as a male rant.
Abalyn, I find parts of your response surprising. I am in a singles ward as well, and mostly what I see around me are strong, compassionate women who get things done. I think most of the good work done in our ward is done by women.
Debra, leadership is an interesting concept. Who was a better leader, Ghandi or Hitler? Mother Theresa or General Patton? You could argue that all were effective. But, we tend to glamorize positions of authority and power as if they are the mark of a leader. Yet, the greatest leader of all, Jesus Christ, was a poor servant. He was despised, rejected, and we esteemed him not. (To paraphrase Isaiah).
I love the messages from the sisters at General Conference. But, I would love them just as much if they didn’t have any titles associated with their responsibilities. I would love the messages even more if I could sit down with the sister and hear the message one on one. It would be so much more personal and impactful. The quiet work that often goes unseen by church leaders seems to have the greatest impact on wards as lives are blessed one on one.
Abalyn, you are not the first to have expressed this desire for stronger or greater representation from women in the church. So, there is obviously a need somewhere. I don’t know how to address that. But, from my vantage point, women are prized in the church and are valued for their constant service and impact on the culture of wards and families.
Regarding roles of men, I think Elder Christopherson’s talk was interesting this last conference. He spoke to the idea that we need stronger men in the church. I need to reread the talk. I recommend you give it a look. He addresses some commentaries from other authors about the condition of men in society.
I wonder if women today are struggling to live their role in the home/church/society as much as men are in the home/work/priesthood? I always seem to think that women are just that much better at living a charitable life. But, obviously, the Relief Society continues to teach those principles, not because women are perfect, but because women need to be perfected (just as men do).
Jason that was very well said! I really liked this comment “Authority does not make a leader.”
I believe that you might have misinterpreted the comment about the stake and general level though, unless I did. I thought it meant that they do a good job of supporting the women but in the individual wards it can be more challenging to see women utilized as well as they could be. Again, I could be wrong on how that was meant since it was not my comment originally.
You also make a good point about what your role is in a woman’s life. I believe that priesthood stands firm on this issue to testify of God’s decision that man be included in the family make up even though people can get all kinds of other ideas and present them as if they are logical or beneficial. This reminds me of one reason why I am so grateful for the temple because the role of man and woman as partners following Christ together is very clear.
Thanks again for adding to the discussion!
I want to make an observation. With society attacking marriage and family and civilization as it does, (at least the noisy minority or lobbyists that seek for same sex marriage and such) I cannot help but think if God had not given the priesthood to men and put them in the governmental place that they are that women would easily have over whelmed them and perhaps saved out only a few choice specimens for use as drones like in the bee colonies. Women can be very proficient and logical sometimes. But we forget, male and female, that it is God’s will and purposes that we seek. He has set up the plan and in his wisdom he has protected those things that are most sacred and that lead to the fulfillment of his eternal glory which is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life of man. Again men are that they might have joy and we need to choose to be grateful and thankful for what we now receive from the Lord and then we will have the opportunity to grow in understanding and in practical application of eternal principles and perhaps be instrumental in bringing about enlightened changes to the world as a whole as we allow the light of Christ to grow within us.
Jason, I hope that you have the opportunity to sit at a table and have the kind of conversation you were talking about with a special woman. Thank you for your expression of appreciation for the role of women and their influence in the church and the world as a whole.
Abalyn, I believe there is an unspoken law among women in the church that does not allow them to be the leaders of compassion that you speak about. And certainly this must change. I believe that Sister Burton’s talk and the other women at conference were powerful, inspiring and fun and great examples of choosing to live the life of the Mormon in following the example of Jesus Christ and having joy in it.
In my walk in the church I have found that as I am willing to raise my voice and speak and live according to the values that I find in the word of God I influence others to lift their voices as well. It happens here in rural South Dakota and it happened in Provo, Utah when I lived there not so long ago. I have to admit it was a hard go in Utah. I felt as if I was really rocking the boat but I could tell by responses that it was refreshing and needed, my speaking from the heart and from my experiences and personal witness of the gospel. In Orem it was not so well received by most. Not outwardly anyway. The climate there was much less transient and settled and their capacity to accept change or a mirror on their own behavior was a tough cultural thing to break through.
As disciples of Christ we need to be willing to be true and strong and even willing to allow others to be a tad uncomfortable with us. I believe this anyway, because it is the only true soil that allows for change and growth and repentance and hope truly. The alternative is to feel overly comfortable and confident that we have done and are doing our part and others outside there will just have to suffer for their sins. I do not know that I am making much sense here. I am not trying to criticize in any way people’s right to a personal choice but I do feel we must remain in a somewhat constant state of discomfort or dissatisfaction if we are to progress and be open to the whisperings of the Holy Ghost and continue to improve not only our own lives but the lives of those within our families and societies at large.
Your topic and the input has been a delight to participate in. Thank you.